A Conversation With Havas Team: How to Use Omnichannel and CX to Succeed With Launches in 2023 and Beyond

Bozidar: Hello and welcome to the new episode of Pharma Launch Secrets. Today I have the special pleasure of being joined by three guests from Havas Group. We have Tara Stewart, who is Managing Director. We have Richard Shaffer, who is Associate Managing Director. And then we have Patrick or Pat Thistlethwaite. I just learned how to pronounce it properly. All again from Havas group. These three guests have a wealth of knowledge in digital marketing, data analytics, customer relationship management, CX, pharma launches. So they have held leadership positions in several marketing agencies and pharma companies before working at Havas Group, including Mazda, Pfizer, Bristol Myers Squibb and Razorfish. Welcome, Richard, Patrick, and Tara.

Pat: Thanks, Bozi. Nice to be here.

Tara: Thanks.

Richard: Great to be here.

Bozidar: This is going to be fun. All right, so on this podcast, we are talking about pharma launches and all the topics that related to that, including, of course, omnichannel and customer experience. So the first question let's really start and when we talk about especially CX, is always starting with patient and HCPs. A lot has changed last three, four years. So we could start maybe highlighting some of those biggest changes when it comes to HCPs and patients who need new medicine. What has changed in terms of their expectations?

Pat: Maybe I'll start and everyone else can chime in. I think the biggest thing that we've seen in the last three or four years is the expectations of patients and HCPs have shifted. What they expect from pharmaceutical company communications is drastically different than it was just a few years ago. They hold us at the same level. They have the same level of expectations as Netflix and Disney Plus and Amazon. Then they're not settling for second rate experiences. So we've definitely seen that from our customers and then on our clients. We see our clients generally following that trend by bringing in expertise from outside of the pharmaceutical industry. Each of us have backgrounds that span pharma and non-pharma, and we're starting to really see that reflected in our client organizations as well. Looking to bring in best in class capabilities from the travel industry, from the financial industry, from even automotive.

Richard: I think the digital pollution that we saw before COVID has only got worse. And I don't think anyone has really figured out completely yet how to stem the tide of the avalanche of emails and ads and interruptions and text messages and everything that we see in our day-to-day lives. And I don't think it matters whether you're a patient or an HCP or ourselves. We see it all the time. And I think more and more pharma companies now moved over to digital first from a channel perspective during COVID to try and reach people they couldn't get to anymore in person. And I think everyone is trying to overcome that. But I'm not sure that the industry as a whole has quite got to the point yet where they've figured out how to really cut through, reduce the clutter and really focus on what's important rather than just a mass of communications.

Tara: Richard just feeding off of that piece, though, is and it's not a change, but it's where it needs to go. Right. So even before COVID the need for precision and accuracy is far greater than it was before. Right. So you talked about cutting through the clutter. Right. So Bozi it's really about arming your marketers with the right data so that they're cutting through that clutter and getting to the individual at the right time where they are. Meeting them where they are. You'll hear me say meeting them where they are because every company is in a very different place. Richard's Chuckling because I say this all the time. Right. X isn't a magic switch. So I think the challenges that Pharma still has is brands. It's difficult for brands to do it alone. And companies that may not have a true CX vision are struggling to really achieve the true CX outcomes that they're laying down for themselves. Right. You can see the differences across various farm codes based on the level of commitment that they're putting in.

Bozidar: Yeah. Important points that you made, and digital first, and then how to do digital first and the precision and user experience. One thing that I'm listening and I'm thinking, okay, how can a brand director nowadays, let's say a commercial person responsible for launch, whatever is your job title? It feels like they need to build, like a massively, broad set of skills in order to be able to be dangerous in the room and ask the right question and also be able to pull these pieces together. And so what you're saying right now, first of all, when we think how do these expectations translate in how far, first of all, is set up organizationally for launch, do you see expansion of those teams used to be medical, commercial, digital? You feel like expansion of the CX person part of the conversation, or is it horizontally built function? So how does that translate first organizationally into how far may set up?

Tara: So I guess I'll jump in first. And Pat and Richard, feel free to chime in. I would say it varies by company. Right. So you have certain companies that have gone all in and built centers excellence or Hubs, if you know, that are really driving the MarTech, the ecosystem, and trying to drive the adoption of customer experience. In Omni like BMS, like Pfizer, there's many and then there's others, like Janssen and some of the larger entities that are still going brand by brand. So they are bringing in CX roles, but each company is doing it different in terms of how it aligns to their strategy. And how they are building out those skill sets. And what you're also seeing, and you mentioned this is the role of a marketer and the skills will need to evolve. Right. And Pharma is still, I think, grappling with that a little bit. Digital isn't an add on. It is marketing. Right. So we shouldn't even be saying digital marketing anymore, because when you talk about experiences, it is the customer in all of the touch points, whether that be live, whether that be person, in person or digitally enabled. So I think you're seeing many versions or iterations of how this is evolving and some are doing it better than others as a result.

Pat: Yeah, I think people who are successful on the client side in individual roles and marketing teams are people who are embracing new ways of working, embracing new capabilities. To really do precision marketing, personalized marketing, to build personalized experiences that solve problems for our customers, you have to have an understanding of MarTech. You have to have an understanding of data and how it flows through AdTech and Martech. What data you can use to target, what data you can use to change what you're showing a customer, what data you can then collect from that experience to make the next experience better. That's all new. This isn't just putting a TV ad out into the world or doing a monthly email series. Definition of good CX is that it anticipates a needed, it solves a problem, and then iterates to solve the next problem that a customer has.

Richard: I think to that point and to what Tara said, particularly the mindset of putting the customer first is, I think, where really everybody needs to go next. I think it's that move from thinking about the technology and Pat, to your point, everything needs the technology, everything needs the data. And I think a lot of organizations are building a lot of those things and getting them in place. I think there's still a long way to go, but I think where the organizations that we're seeing that are further ahead that have embedded a lot of that stuff still haven't necessarily got to the point yet where the mindset has changed of the marketer to say it's not about, yeah, I need the platforms. I need the data to be able to enable this. But how am I fundamentally changing how we talk to customers and making sure that they're strategically going back and thinking about the journeys and the individual experiences that a customer is actually the way that they're interacting with the organization. To fundamentally change how we think about the customers experience and not the brand, the product, the technology, the platform?

Pat: Yeah, I think this can be overwhelming, and I've seen particularly some consultancies create giant 400 page decks and incredibly detailed and brilliant customer experience maps. But you give that to someone who is evolving as a marketer and it's really, really tough to implement it. And what we found success in is breaking it down into individual use cases and just finding one thing that we can change, one thing where we can adjust it slightly based on behavior, whether that's claims analysis behavior that we derive from claims analysis, whether it's behavior that we see online just one thing and change that and then the next thing and the next thing and the next thing, rather than looking at a full potentially multi-year customer journey and trying to attack it all at once, it can be overwhelming.

Bozidar: Yeah, I can only imagine. Then you add layers like global launches, different languages and all that, it tends to get even more and more complicated. But the idea of choosing your battles and very ruthlessly prioritizing what will be the first, the second and third thing of these 400 things or 400 slides that we have, maybe there's like 20 things we should do that we are not doing today or not set up with our capabilities. Overwhelm is real. And I talk to pharma teams, I talk to them daily and I can definitely feel that one question that comes in and you're mentioning data and analytics and basically ability to provide an individual experience through different channels. And as I'm listening, I'm thinking, well, that requires tremendous amount of data about an individual in order to really personalize that, to truly personalize. I always think of hotel industry and how the journey when you enter hotel and then you message and then you see something on TV and then before and after. So because the multichannel kind of follows me, knows what I want and all that. And that requires apart from third party data, also first party data, right, to be able to do something like that. So I have to ask you this question because I'm curious. How are pharma companies that are thinking about this topic and that are doing something right now managing or being able to get the rich first party data, producing more content, or how they're able to attract doctors, patients into their own world to generate data? Is that important, first of all? 

Richard: So I think what we're seeing in a lot of the larger pharma companies is they are consolidating a lot of that data analysis work and the data sourcing internally and building core data functions and big data lakes and data warehouses in order to be able to do this. So I think, first of all, it's definitely a trend that we've noticed that the sophistication of what they're doing in house is growing and advancing and they're building, breaking down the silos of data. That's the key first step for anyone who wants to improve where they're at with their data is to start by seeing what data they have and bringing it all into one place and making sense of it in one centralized function. Then it becomes about the value exchange that you're offering with the customers in order to be able to generate more data. So it's not just I want you to give me your information, but it's what are you going to get back in return? And understanding the value exchange that you're offering in order to be able to justify parting of that information. And I think we see a certain level of, I think probably people not thinking through what that value exchange is and only thinking about one side of the equation, I want your data and not thinking about the value they're giving back in return. So I'd say once you've got your data consolidated and you're ready to start collecting more, the first thing to think about is what is valuable data? And the next thing is, what am I willing to do in order to get that data and how am I going to live the promise. So the number of websites that you'll go to in Pharma and outside of Pharma, where if you sign up to receive a newsletter, you're either getting bombarded with a slew of daily emails that you didn't really plan on getting in the first place, or you don't get anything. And actually there's no reality behind the promise of parting with the data. So I think understanding accurately what the customer wants and what that value exchange needs to be is definitely critical to making sure that you're going to start building the right captures and the right offer to build your first party customer data.

Tara: Yeah, and what I would also say is most of Pharma has had a lot of this data for a long time, right. They just didn't actually put a value on it and it was decentralized, right. So it was untapped and often duplicated by going outside. So to Richard's point, with the level of investment in creating these data and analytics teams, it's starting to empower the organizations to work differently. That being said, back to Richard's comment earlier, that's where the growth mindset comes in, right? Because it requires you to work across matrices, knowing where that data is and how to access that data, which again, ties back to how that marketer needs to understand all the aspects that we talked about a little bit ago, too.

Richard: Tara said it much nicer than I did, though. 

Pat: In that value exchange, there's still so much poor execution of this. You can tell where someone wanted to launch a CRM program for a product and they just put something out there and then forgot about it. There was a product that we're working on a pitch for recently, and I signed up for their email, just part of my due diligence to try to see what they would have, what they would share, what kind of program they had. Didn't get anything for five days. And by the way, I signed up as someone who wasn't yet diagnosed and the first thing they sent me after five days was for a prescription card, like a discount card just completely not useful for someone in that space. If you have a customer who is spending the time doing their research, coming to a brand website and giving you their information, you should be doing everything possible to help solve whatever issue they have. And there's so much opportunity there for that person who's reaching out for help, reaching out to say, give me some value, give me something to just let it go. It's crazy to me that that still is something that happens, but you can see how it happens with how these programs get put into place sometimes.

Bozidar: Yeah, I also sometimes the shock with some of these things because in farm industry, what's different that I see from other industries. One of the things that lifetime value per customer is massive. Like LTV is just massive per patient or per doctor. Right? And so if you look at that and real well, there is a lot of margin to play with. So if I have an inbound lead, who's the highest quality lead that you're describing is coming to our website and we do in our day to day marketing with our med, we see that it's always a higher quality lead. Someone reaching out, asking for information. There is intent, there is everything. So actually, recently we came across we were thinking like, how fast should we respond, for example, and we found the data and it turns out that there is massive advantage if you respond within the first five minutes nowadays. It's ridiculous. It was a massive difference. I forgot the percentage. So started to think, oh, okay, so how can we do that? And not a chatbot, but really like a human being asking, hey, what do you need? Because just doing that and investing some money in that experience with the margin and the high lifetime value is actually very doable and very commercially attractive. And so sometimes I would wonder like, oh, how is this medium for not set to be better, beautiful, easy to use when someone asking question about interactions between drugs or should I prescribe this or how do I get the cards for something else? So it's puzzling, but I see signs of improvements as well from my side. Another thing that also comes to our mind is and whenever people mention Omnichannel is there's no omnichannel without content, there's no omnichannel, right? And sometimes when we think about digital first future, we say, well, digital is already first, but it's also content first future. So every company wants to produce more content in every industry. Some industries have been doing that for years. And when I say content, sometimes I would say content and talking to pharma folks and they would think visualate. When I say content, I mean video, audio, photographic, text, on-demand content. You can access third party, first party places. And recently there was this research I think was Mctana was published and say, well, more than 60% of pharma teams struggle with content and continues to be a struggle for various reasons. How do you see that playing out over the next two or three years? If you had a crystal ball or maybe how about you have a crystal ball somewhere in the office and say, well, how is this contenting going to evolve? Everyone knows they need to do something, but everyone's like, well, yes, but there it is. But there is that. What do you think will happen over the next two or three years?

Tara: Well, I would say it's been going on for a long time. Parma is just a little slower right to the party. I do think you will start to see the shift of part of the challenge. I should start there. Part of the challenge is the way the industry goes about executing content, right? It is very tactically focused and creative. What is happening as a result of being customer-centric is you need to focus on the content agnostic of channel and start shifting to that true content publishing mindset. Right. Many have been doing that for years outside of the pharma industry and it changes pharma's role in what they are. Right. Shifting from a product-based company to a content publisher is a big difference in how you approach getting the right information to the right channel, et cetera. So I think you'll start to see those, and we are seeing it now, those that are further ahead are starting to do this right and they're trying to spend more time upfront from a strategy perspective and creating that content so they can truly distribute and not execute tactics. Right. But there's very few that are doing it well across all channels, right. Because they're still early on this particular journey. So I think you will see advancements, I think you will continue to see the digital world require an expectation of more content, right? Social started it, but again, people think of social in its own lane, not necessarily how you use that content across channel. So I think you're going to continue to see that shift out of the tactics and more so into that customer and the creation of content agnostic. You said it earlier, many of our clients, they start content creation with a visit. It literally is that's the first thing that goes into market research. That's the first thing I ask. Very rarely do they ask the patient. So I think really focusing on the who and then creating the what is going to be the biggest shift. At least I hope.

Richard: Yeah, couldn't agree more. I think content science is also starting to come in more and when we think about what types of content to create and what is going to move.

Bozidar: The needle now, I'm very curious.

Richard: It's the understanding and the strategic and scientific understanding of how people change attitudes, change behaviors, and which types of content lead to which types of attitudinal changes and which types of behavior changes. So really understanding your objectives and what change you're trying to engender in your audience, that needs to be quite specific when we come back to think about the data that sits behind it. The right data leads you to understanding how your customers are thinking and behaving today. The right strategy understands how you want those thoughts and behaviors to change and then it's the right content to activate the specific types of behavior and attitudinal changes that you're looking. So I think gone are the days where we just say we need a TV ad. Now, I'm not saying TV ads are going anywhere, but the reality is that there are lots of different types of content out there and different types of content are better for different types of objective in terms of behavior and mindset change. So understanding that and thinking really at a different sort of level about what type of change you're looking for and matching the right types of content to that, I think, makes a big it marks the shift in moving. Away from thinking about it as just purely an art and moving much more towards a more scientific approach of how you choose, prioritize, build and deliver content.

Pat: Content strategy and melding that with behavioral science to get content science.

Richard: Thanks.

Pat: Content.

Tara: Start using that Richard.

Richard: I like it. I'm using that from now on.

Pat: I like that a lot. I'll find another way to use it today somewhere. No, but content strategy is about the fastest growing role that we have in the network at the moment. I mean, there's just a massive need as our clients recognize the need to create more content, there's a massive need to just not make more stuff, but to make it smarter and make it to be very aligned at the behavior changes that we're trying to affect. Their content strategy and general omnichannel strategy are the two probably most in demand roles at the network at the moment.

Bozidar: Yeah, I can imagine. And just using cockpit content to activate behavior change and do it at an individual level of physician understanding. First of all, what would they, let's say, beliefs around something or even at the segment level because there are sometimes segment level could work. And thinking of it in terms of science, I think that's also it feels overwhelming. First of all, when you think of it as like pharma person launching a product, I just don't think it's an if this needs to be done, it's a question of how fast you'll figure out what works. And I had that conversation with some of a large pharma company the other day, General Manager, now VP, big launch preparation, the whole team. And one of the things they agreed is like, we understand that this is not if we need more content to do this, it's how fast are we going to make all these small failures until we figure out what works, right? One or two things.

Pat: The reality is this does work. Where we've done test and control models, it really works. So if we're not doing this and others, are you're going to fail? It actually makes a tangible difference in ROI whenever we personalize content, whenever we personalize the messages that we're putting out there, whenever we use content science to approach these things. So if we're not figuring it out, then we're not keeping up with the industry.

Bozidar: Yeah, one question I had that and it's maybe tactical question is let's say you have all these pieces of content organized in a modular way or modular content. Just had a topic actually from expert, from Havas and it's just a better, smarter way really to plan for content and create content and be able to cater to different individuals. The question is, how would let's say the content right behavior change? How can that be measured before it's really expressed into maybe increased prescription for a new product or using the right drug for the right patient, which will come to increase prescription in the right patient, which oftentimes there's a new drug in the market, but it just takes, like, two or three years until doctors really even learn, oh, it's in the guidelines. Oh, I should actually be using it. And in patients don't get access for two or three years. So how do you measure that on this individual piece of content before that? Is it through like a little small survey? When you change that, did it help you learn this or that or help you with your clinical decision making? What are those proxies until after six months, nine months or twelve months, we're like, okay, there is actually change even in prescriptions. So how do you think about that?

Tara: Well, I'll jump in first and I'll kind of parlay this from the journey I was on in my prior life, because we did advance to modular content. And I would say it requires you to look at your engagement data more frequently. And that was a big shift for us because often it was perceived as operational data. It's not important, however, that operational engagement data does give you the insights of what's working, what's not working. So it's not a set it and forget it. You need to launch and be looking at the engagement across to Pat's point when you're doing A and B testing right. Pivot and make changes quickly. So there's a lot that you can do. But that's where it requires different skill sets to be able to look at that information. And it doesn't always give you the answer, it often raises the questions. Right. So you have to be actively in the data, reacting and proactively, making shifts and optimizations throughout the journey. Right. Because there is that long loot time.

Richard: How you build your measurement framework is also an important part of the conversation. So you got to understand again your audience and your objectives. What are you trying to achieve? What's the path to get there? And understanding is this a new category where we are launching a new drug and therefore the major push first of all is on education and finding a niche or finding the unmet need or finding the right HCP with the right patient types. Whatever that specific objectives are, is being really specific about it, understanding what you're doing and then building everything down from there. So you're building your content again, we were talking about content a second ago. So building your content up to make sure that it ladders up to those objectives. Everything needs to come from those overarching objectives and then having the right measures at the right points in your journey to make sure that and also measuring at multiple levels. So just measuring a campaign level is kind of is my media working? Yeah, your media might be working, but is the content within the media working? Is the content within the media driving the behavior changes you're looking for? And what sits in between those things is defined by what your objectives for your brand are and the brand situation and the overall change that's required in your audience to get you there.

Pat: Yeah, I think you brought up media, Richard. There's a big trend of our clients expecting more from media and expecting more in not just campaign reporting, but integrated reporting with creative, with the creative side. Integrated reporting and insight generation. That's critical. I have a whole theory that we could probably do a whole other podcast on about the reconvergence of media and creative. Everyone broke it apart here over the last 10 or 15 years and got their own enterprise media agencies and separate creative agencies. It's coming back together because of this. It's going to be very hard to separate media and creative in a modern world where we're doing much more of this behavioral science driven content and personalized marketing.

Bozidar: Yeah, interesting to say that we see also across other industries like an interesting blend between pay-per-click advertising or it's called media okay, pharma and then organic or inbound as HubSpot named it in 2007. So that's where you do both. Like a really interesting intersection where the organic and something works. You test it out, then you actually turn into creative. Then you kind of blow it up. And suddenly there is this world where media is also used to drive the conversation and not just have very specific direct response message or brand message, but it's actually shaping those either beliefs or educating. Almost like sometimes I think of it as a hundreds of billboards that I'm going through but it's not like one telling me do this or brand awareness, here we are. But it's actually a series of messages that I'm exposed and I'm learning and it's shaping my beliefs and I see so that after I see those hundred billboards I actually went through the content experience similar to how I would go when I'm on a Netflix like hub or something, where there's a lot of content, right.

Richard: We can take that step further as well. I know we talk a lot about digital, and one of my concerns about the digital-first mindset is that we still have in person interactions. There's not going anywhere. Pharma companies haven't suddenly lost faith in their salesforces. If anything, they're doubling down and making sure that everything that we're doing in the digital world is helping the Rep be more effective when they're in the office, making sure that the Congress experience is perfect and aligning those things to make sure that your Rep has the insight to extend that content experience. And that's not just the Iva or the CVA or the visual aid on an iPad that they've got in front of them, but that's the messaging that sits behind it. And that's understanding what your HCP is doing in digital channels, how they're prescribing, what the deep insight is that you can deliver to them to make them more effective and then bringing them back into the circle again. So it's making omnichannel, really omnichannel and not just a digital experience done better.

Bozidar: Yeah, I'm going to say that because, no, we definitely didn't want to forget human beings and sales reps and 100% agree. Sometimes we use the term amplifier to amplify what reps do so they have more meaningful conversations, informed by the data, informed by the intent of the person that they're talking to. What content did they watch before they met? What they believe? What questions do they have and also after. So there is this kind of seamless, oh, I talked to rep about X, but there is okay, now I see a piece of content that continues that conversation from a KOL XYZ, and I think that's a must. There are, of course, challenges, and I hear more and more challenges with attribution. Someone mentioned to me three days ago that marketing attribution is going to be a place where new billion dollar companies will be building unicorns just because it's becoming harder and harder and harder. And the terms like dark social are raising. So you see where your customers or prescriptions are coming from, but then when you ask them, they actually say that they're coming from somewhere else. It's really interesting how all of that is going to shape up. We're becoming more precise and we're dealing with an additional set of challenges. Well, I think we could have probably scheduled multiple different episodes to go a little deeper on all these topics, but knowing that we have a few minutes left, it's been a great conversation and interesting. I recently got this table that's height adjustable, but it's also whiteboard and it took me a couple of months to realize that it's whiteboard. So now I start to actually draw and make those mind maps during podcast and have a whole thing now in front of me like those artists used to be hired sometimes for those meetings and looking, okay, this is a lot. And I could actually go deep into one of these topics more, but given the constraints of time. But one thing I love to do is have listeners learn more about you as human beings, as persons, not only about the content. So, I have some questions, quick questions. Feel free to choose one. Whoever wants to go, let's do one question per person. Maybe. So, favorite industry buzzword of 2023. What do you think will be maybe all three can go for this one. Just one word.

Richard: I think Tara is starting the trend with meeting them where they are.

Bozidar: Four origin, One.

Pat: AI. AI. AI. Everything is AI.

Bozidar: Everything AI. Okay, I like that. Everything AI. Cool. Richard, do you have any other or that was the one? 

Richard: I thought I'd stolen Tara's one. That was my contribution. I think Tara still has to go. God, Tara sure.

Tara: Well, I think Omnichannel is actually overused, believe it or not, but I think AI I think Pat's right. It's everywhere, it's all things, and everyone thinks it's going to solve every problem they have. Right. But back to our earlier conversation. There's a lot that needs to be in place to take advantage of it.

Bozidar: And maybe AI will be doing really precisely all this on the channel, knowing exactly what a person needs, individual level before they know it in their sleep.

Richard: I mean, I'm hoping it doesn't get too clever too fast, otherwise I'll be unemployed.

Tara: Well, Elon Musk is trying to help you out with that.

Pat: Yeah, he's delaying it for you, just for Richard. How sweet is it? 

Bozidar: There you go. Speaking of behavior changed, just funny, I was listening to this episode and I met this guy, Neuroscientist and MIT, and talks about brains, one of the top world experts, and he worked with Elon Musk and all that, and he said that now lately, they actually haven't put someone to sleep. During that part of the sleep where we are processing our day, you can use smell to trigger very strong behavior change. So in smokers, they would actually have Nicotine smell and then add rotten eggs smell. But at the right time, if you do it throughout the whole night, nothing happens, but at the right night time. And then after two days, smoke was like, I don't like smoking. It's really interesting how we are going to do that. Behavior change, new guidelines, prescriptions. I don't know, it made me think. And then what's the best book that you read that was Impactful for you over the past year or two?

Pat: I just read one. I don't know if I'd call it Impactful. It was a really good book, though. Grey Bees by Andrey Kurkov. He also wrote Death in the penguin. That's his famous book. But it's about a beekeeper who lives in essentially the demilitarized zone in Ukraine, in the dumbass fiction, but just really entertaining. Interesting and different. As is Death in the Penguin, where the protagonist has a two foot empire penguin that he keeps in his apartment in, I can't remember if it's Moscow or Saint Petersburg in that one, but yeah, really interesting author who I follow quite a bit here.

Bozidar: Tara. Richard, did you know that Patrick was reading these two books and taking notes here?

Tara: He did share it, actually, with the team a little bit ago, so I did know that one.

Bozidar: All right, so then the second question. Another question. Is your go to music Tara, Richard, when you feel needs a little bit of inspiration?

Tara: That really depends.

Bozidar: Genre or song?

Tara: I have a very diverse music genre, but I would say as of late, and you'll make fun of me for this. My daughter has created her pregame Spotify, which is actually really good and it's inspirational. So I've been ripping off her Spotify list, to be honest with you. Playlist. But I will say, if you're asking about go to bands, I will tend to go back to The Who, Anyday. Love them, seen them in concert more than I should admit, and they're still going. They've retired, like five times.

Richard: In the spirit of confessions, I'm still relatively new to the US, been here about just over three years now, and I recently, fairly recently, started listening to country music for the first time. And I don't know if that's about embedding myself in American culture or it's just as a Brit, I never really was exposed to it that much. But I have discovered I quite like country music and so I'm just learning new artists and I have got made up a playlist now that's got about 100 different country songs on it, and it's a whole new genre to explore, which is quite exciting. I don't know whether it's something I should be proud of or slightly embarrassed by, but I'm quite enjoying my journey through country.

Tara: Richard, if it makes you feel better, I've embraced country in the last five years as well.

Richard: It's great.

Pat: I haven't done that, but it.

Richard: Makes me want to buy boots in a cowboy hat and really throw myself into it. I'm not going to yet, but.

Tara: Nashville trip in your future.

Pat: Exactly. I haven't embraced country, but I have embraced Taylor Swift because I've got an eleven and a 13 year old daughter, and it's on all the time. They're very into Taylor Swift.

Richard: All that said, I do have Ed Sheeran tickets when he comes to visit.

Pat: There you go.

Richard: In June.

Bozidar: June. Mid June. Yes. Another route, but yeah. Great. Well, I don't know, when you go back to UK and you confess the country music.

Richard: This podcast is US only, right? No one outside the US is going to be explore. 

Bozidar: Of course not.

Tara: Your secret is not safe.

Bozidar: Great. Just one sentence piece of advice for someone new, just starting in the world of pharma or media creative one sentence advice.

Tara: Mine found the status quo.

Pat: All right, well, I'd say be curious.

Bozidar: Curious. All right, Richard? 

Richard: Remember your customer is the person who is the most important one in the equation.

Bozidar: All right, well, perfect. I think that's a wonderful end to this phenomenal podcast. I was locked here. It was really pleasure and fun to talk to you, and hopefully listeners also got a lot from it. So thank you for joining today.

Richard: Great. Thank you.