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  • Episode 31: US Launches: How to Use Media Channels, Ads, GPT, Endemic, and Non-Endemic Channels to Be Relevant From Day 1 and Drive a Successful Launch

US Launches: How to Use Media Channels, Ads, GPT, Endemic, and Non-Endemic Channels to Be Relevant From Day 1 and Drive a Successful Launch

with Kelly (Lundquist) Millett, SVP and Head of Health Strategy at Havas Media Network

  • Linear adoption Rx funnel vs. trust and engagement-based funnel: How to think about media strategy and KPIs?
  • Old vs new media approach: The content, context, and connection to drive behavior change 
  • Deep audience targeting: Can you target both HCPs and patients with extreme precision in 2023 and beyond?
  • Content: How to choose the right type of content to use for each HCP segment?
  • The massive shift in pharma channels: Digital vs. non-digital trends and when to use endemic and non-endemic channels to reach HCPs?
  • Chat GPT, AI, and Ads: Are there more opportunities or threats?
  • Data: 1st party vs 3rd party, moving away from the impression and towards value exchange

To answer these questions, Bozidar is joined by Kelly (Lundquist) Millett, SVP and Head of Health Strategy at Havas Media Network.

Topics Covered in this Episode

  • [ 01:26 ] - If you are someone preparing a product launch in the US, it's vital to have a conversation about the competitive landscape and identify the audience stakeholders you want to engage. Therefore, you can develop a clear approach with aligned goals and determine the best media strategy. In the traditional pharma sense, year one may focus on disease education, awareness, and brand building. However, nowadays, regardless of the consumer group (patients, physicians, payers), decisions are made rapidly and in real time. So it's less about awareness leading to consideration and conversion, and more about leveraging media to build relationships, strengthen bonds, increase engagement, and ultimately influence key brand decisions.
  • [ 03:48 ] - In the adoption funnel, there are stages of awareness, consideration, and decision, similar to the AIDA model. This approach is conversion-focused, with a focus on driving prescriptions. However, today, the emphasis is on building trust and engagement. Rather than immediately seeking a prescription, pharma marketers spend more time on the front end of the funnel, providing useful content and establishing trust. By prioritizing your customers, such as patients and physicians, you can identify the behavior changes you need to drive. Trust plays a crucial role in decision-making, often relying on emotional drivers rather than solely clinical claims. While data, efficacy, and safety are important, healthcare decisions require patients to trust and have access to therapy, which involves delivering the right experience at each stage of their journey.
  • [ 07:55 ] - Media companies and media agencies today have a significant understanding of how to target patients and healthcare professionals. From an HCP perspective, the NPI number serves as a vital identifier that enables a deep understanding of physicians' characteristics and facilitates segmentation strategies. Moreover, recognizing that physicians' media consumption primarily occurs outside of office hours, it becomes crucial to comprehend their everyday lives and identify meaningful ways to engage with them. Building trustworthy relationships requires avoiding excessive messages and focusing on creating deep and meaningful interactions. The NPI number also enables detailed segmentation work by leveraging third-party data and allows for the effective execution and activation of an omnichannel journey tailored to each individual physician.
  • [ 19:47 ] - Digital channels have witnessed a remarkable surge in utilization, especially among physicians. While print remains a valuable channel for various purposes, there is a growing trend among younger physicians, who are digital natives themselves, towards digital platforms. Within the digital space, different social channels are being adopted. There is an intriguing opportunity for pharma marketers to venture into HCP engagement beyond these endemic environments. Platforms like TikTok are witnessing increasing physician engagement, highlighting the potential for exploring new avenues in HCP engagement.

If you want to learn more about leading a successful pharma marketing campaign in the US, tune in to this episode of Pharma Launch Secrets, a Podcast by Evermed.

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About the Podcast

Pharma Launch Secrets” is a podcast by Evermed and hosted by CEO Bozidar Jovicevic, where we host direct, actionable conversations with world-leading pharma launch experts and help you stay up-to-date with the latest trends and strategies to help you launch your product successfully.

Episode Transcript

Bozidar: Hello and welcome to the new episode of the Pharma Launch Secrets podcast. Today I'm excited to speak with Kelly Lundquist. Kelly is the Senior Vice President and Head of Health Strategy for North America at Havas Media Group. I'm stressing this out because Havas is a massive group. So she works at the Havas Media Group and that's the topic of today. Kelly has over 15 years of experience in the healthcare industry. So she's a seasoned strategist and she's specialized in helping clients drive business growth through innovative healthcare solutions, marketing campaigns, leveraging data, leveraging analytics to inform any strategy for her clients. She's also known for her ability to stay ahead of the trends and navigate complex landscapes such as healthcare and regulatory throughout her career. I'm excited to talk today about this topic because you're also the first person who'll talk to me about media, and specifically in the US. So welcome.

Kelly: Thank you so much for having me. It's an honor.

Bozidar: All right. So let's dive in. Let's say you have in front of us someone preparing a launch of the product in the US, maybe brand director, and they're thinking, okay, on top of everything I'm doing, I need to think of the media plan and how I should be effectively using media. So I have money for launch because typically that's where the budgets are the biggest. But I also want to use that money wisely given that I know the 60% of launches fail. So I'm a little bit afraid, a little bit uncertain. And so starting with like goals, how should I think about the goals? What should I be thinking of achieving using the budgets I have for media? 

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. It's typically the first question we get asked when starting to engage with a new brand and a new client. And the answer to it has certainly gotten more complex in recent years. You know, the past we'd be given perhaps an overall MBRX goal or overall TRX goal that a brand wants to achieve. Sometimes given perhaps a brand health goal that the brand wants to achieve. So for instance, maybe something like an awareness benchmark that they're looking to drive and surpass within the first year or two. But now even more so we need to have even a bigger conversation about what does the competitive landscape look like? Who are those audience stakeholders that they're actually trying to engage and taking all of that different information together so that we can really come up with an aligned upon approach as to what are those goals that we want to ascribe to and then therefore, what's that best media strategy to address it? It's not so much anymore thinking of things in a traditional adoption funnel, right? So in a traditional Pharma sense, we might think about, well, in year one, we want to drive disease state education or awareness and also build brand awareness, for instance. But now more than ever, no matter the consumer group that we're thinking about, be it patients, physicians, payers, everyone's making these decisions in a much more rapid and real time manner. So it's less about building awareness to drive consideration to ultimately drive conversion. But how do we really leverage media to build better relationships so that we can strengthen those bonds, increase engagement and ultimately drive those key decisions in choosing the brand in the end?

Bozidar: Let's talk a little bit about that. So you use the term adoption funnel. Then you said it's awareness, consideration and decision, right? Which exists in all other industries, similar to like AIDA model in the past. So that's one way to think about it. Very conversion focused, as you said, NRX, TRX, so you're driving prescriptions. And you mentioned in this new world, so you're now building trust and engagement. So does that mean that you still want to get to a prescription, but you're spending more time on the front end of the funnel, if you will, with useful content or trust? How is that trust built? So you're kind of not going directly for the prescription immediately. So if you would have a campaign that drives prescription in 30 days, 90 days, now you're extending that front end time and getting the feedback or engagement before you go for a conversion type of ad. Am I reading that correctly?

Kelly: Yeah, I would say it's not an either or in terms of extending the beginning of the funnel to then ultimately drive conversion. But I think what it is doing is by putting our customers at the core, so the patient, the physician, whoever that stakeholder that we're trying to talk to may be, what we need to be asking ourselves is what's the behavior change that we need to drive? Because I love what you said, Bozi, about trust. Oftentimes it does come down to these bigger emotional drivers, not so much these clinical claims that as Pharma marketers, we're very comfortable talking about our data, our efficacy, our safety, for instance. But really to make decisions and specifically health care decisions, patients need to know that they can trust a therapy or that they can actually access a therapy, that if they take a therapy, it will actually make them better, that they feel that they have control over the outcomes of their health. The same premise goes for those physicians, right? If they go through explaining a new method of action to a patient, is it easy then to actually get that patient on therapy? If it's a new method of action in totality, do they really understand the pros and cons and trade-offs beyond the data itself for actually delivering those better patient outcomes? So instead of thinking of it as that linear journey, it is much more what you said. How do we create an engagement strategy that really will dig in, build that trust? And the way that we build that trust is by actually delivering patients and physicians the right experience that they need at each point of their journeys.

Bozidar: And there's a follow-up question to that which has to do also with user third party first party channels Let's say that some of the strategies are not trying to be linear. How much is then nowadays content? third-party channels, media ads, like placements and different websites, how much are they used to do the educational part? So piece of content that is pushed through media that were not an ad making you click somewhere or asking you to click something, but it's actually it's a content that is doing some sort of education before you ask someone to click and engage. Is that one example of that?

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. And I think in the past, right, maybe the more traditional way we've thought about Pharma marketing is that the marketer will engage a creative agency to come up with the big idea, maybe a digital agency to create that content ecosystem, and then perhaps a media agency to think about what are the channels, what are the audiences, what's that plan of distribution. But now more so, we really do need to be collectively taking that content first approach because one piece of content could actually educate in one context for one audience, but it might inspire or motivate in a totally different context or environment, right? So it's that combination of content, context, and connection that we like to look at and think about to really create those behavior changing experiences that our patients and physicians actually need.

Bozidar: Okay, great. And so, you know, I'm not an expert in media. I know a few things about it, but I understand that there are some components like audience. You're thinking of audience first. And we are talking now both HCPs and patients. So that may get a little bit more complex. Let's say I'm a brand director and I'm thinking of both. How much do media companies, media agencies today know about who to target? Patients and HCPs. Can targeting be done in an MPI level number? Can it be done in most channels or most channels excluding Google search? So can targeting be done in an individual level number with most channels? But also, do companies already have this work with Pharma like Havas Media Group, do you already have also segmentation, rich information about each doctor and profile? And also similar to patients, which is probably more complex because there's going to be many, many more patients. How much that intelligence already exists about audiences? Because I always feel like different views on this and I'm trying to understand as a brand director, what's out there that state of the art today, the best possible that exists today.

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. I love the question and getting to the data and insights is definitely one of my specific passion areas. So glad you asked. We'll take maybe the HCP side of the question first because it is a little bit different, as you mentioned, between what we can do from an HCP perspective versus what we can do from a patient standpoint. So for HCPs, that NPI number is that magic identifier that really helps us get super creative when it comes to not only how deep and detailed we can understand who those physicians are, but then also the segmentation strategies that we can take and then the execution and activation strategies that we can create across that Omni-channel experience. So to take a moment perhaps on the insights piece of it, there are capabilities available. We have them at Havas. They're available across the marketplace with many different partners, but we can take that NPI identifier and use it to match a physician list, for instance, that a client might have. Normally that would be in the form of a rep list, a call list, but a repository of first-party data at that physician level. It can be onboarded in a privacy-safe way and actually matched to other third-party data sources. So internally at the client, they might have a really great understanding of who their current prescribers are, maybe they have a really great understanding of how their sales force or field force is actually talking to and engaging that same list, but it might be kind of a black box when it comes to understanding who are those physicians. Demographically, what cars do they drive? What sort of habits or hobbies are they interested in? And most importantly, from a media perspective, what are their media consumption habits? There's a lot of data to say that physicians today, given how stressed and how busy they are, we know that about 80 plus percent of their media consumption actually happens outside of office hours. So really understanding those blue gene moments, if you will, of who physicians are in their everyday lives, it's incredibly important for us to be really knowledgeable and versed on who they are, where are they, how are they consuming, and where are those meaningful ways we can show up and create real engagement with them. Because they are so busy, we don't wanna be bombarding them with unnecessary engagement, too many messages, but really making those interactions that we do have deep and meaningful so that we can be building those trustworthy and trust-filled relationships with them. So that's kind of on the insights piece. That MPI number then also serves as that linkage to do more detailed segmentation work. We can use all of that additional third-party data to create more robust segmentation. So for instance, if we want to create a physician segment that goes beyond just prescribing behavior, but you wanted to create a segment of physicians, maybe, that live in a particular part of the country and maybe are also interested in sailing, that doesn't really make any sense, but let's say there was a strategic need for it, we can do that through that data enrichment that's available by taking that first-party data and marrying it to the third-party data. And then that last piece is about the execution activation. So that same MPI linkage allows us to sequence and understand how to execute an omni-channel journey for that individual physician. So that's where the collaboration between client and agency becomes even more important because we need to work together along with any creative partners to design what we want that omni-channel journey to look like, what content do we want them to see, why do we want them to see it, what are those optimization triggers that are going to actually sequence the journey, but it's that MPI linkage that helps tie it all together.

Bozidar: Okay, great. So based on what you said with the collaboration between client and agency through use of multiple data sources, clients and third party, you actually create pretty sophisticated audiences that you now want to target with different segments of audiences that you could target now with different content, right? So I see some head notes. Okay, so the verdict is it's quite sophisticated nowadays. And when it comes to content, how do you think about in the creatives in terms of content formats, in terms of length, is there a format is video growing or declining, audio, long form versus short form before we go into channels? How do you think about creatives and do you also segment them in terms of, this is engagement content, this is conversion content, or how is that typically done?

Kelly: Yeah, we like to think about it in terms of going back to that ultimate behavior change goal. So if we decide that, for instance, based on our knowledge of the segments, based on their adoption journey and the pain points they're in, if we can get really clear and crisp on what those behavior changes are, we can then think about what are those optimal content experiences. So for instance, do we know that based on that change, we need some sort of content that's going to allow us to tell a really emotionally driven story, right? So maybe that then lends itself to dynamic video content that can live in different digital formats. It could also be interesting from an audio perspective, right? If we can get the right voice having the right conversation, sometimes audio really lends itself to those more intimate sort of engagement experiences where you're literally listening to someone in your ears, for instance. So it gets to be that quite close relationship, and it helps towards building that overall trust and meaningful relationship. By contrast, sometimes we know that, you know, really creating that behavior change moment might yield itself to really needing to communicate some strong clinical data or really educate a really deep and detailed method of action, for instance, for a specific drug. So that might then lend itself to a very dynamic visual experience, perhaps on a digital channel that allows the user to really interact with the data specifically and play with the visualization. So at the heart of it, it really is about being really clear and really well-versed on what the audience actually needs. And what is that method of interaction that's really going to help us move the needle when it comes to building that bigger relationship and conversion with the brand.

Bozidar: Great. And how do you make sure that you don't make it overly complex when you do all this? You limit number of segments, for example, to three to five, and you say, well, this is more emotionally-driven messaging, they're more skeptics. Because traditional market research would uncover three to five segments, and hey, these are early adopters, these are skeptics, these are something, something. Because it can get quite complex and messy. So that's why I'm asking you, how do you ensure that you still stay relatively simple in a way that it doesn't stand in the way of execution?

Kelly: Absolutely. And I love the question, because this is also one that we get quite often. I think there's actually a great lesson here to be learned for Pharma in terms of how other categories and verticals approach this. So, for instance, in the CPG space, doing something like a churn analysis and understanding your source of volume against your growth goals is a really useful starting point to kind of strike that magic balance between, I don't want to be going too big when I think about my segments, right? We don't want a strategy that's going to spray and pray. But we also want an approach that is going to still reach enough people and engage enough people to drive our ultimate business goals. So when we're looking to strike that balance, especially out of the gate for a launch, it's really useful as an agency to partner very closely with our clients and understand what are your business goals? What sort of launch volume are you trying to drive? And based on the dynamics of the marketplace, do we think that that volume is going to come by bringing new people into the category? Is it going to come by switching existing users or existing prescribers from a competitive therapy to our therapy? Or, and this would be more for a longer tail brand, but is it about extending duration on therapy? And understanding the choices of those three dynamics to source our volume gives us a really strong and clear starting point to start making those strategic choices around some of our segments and how niche to nuance do we need to be without introducing too much complexity, particularly at launch. And then once you have that strong foundation in place, if you've done the learning that we should be doing in real time, leveraging those leading and lagging indicators in media, we can start to get more nuanced and more granular and create those more distinct segmentation journeys as it is useful and productive for the brand experience.

Bozidar: Very clear. And is there something like that you've seen like time from first touch to prescription? I'm asking for average number that you've seen change. Was it like used to be shorter and now it's longer or some other way around?

Kelly: There isn't a single trend on that. It really depends quite significantly depending on therapeutic category, depending on patient population. The dynamic really is all over the place. But what we have seen a huge disruption around is the dynamic between in-person care versus virtual care. So of course, with the pandemic, there was a huge migration to virtual platforms. I think the stat is that at the end of 2019, only two in 10 people had used any sort of virtual care. And by nine months into the pandemic, over eight in 10 had. So it was just a massive adoption of virtual care platforms. We haven't seen those trends continue though. And so the utilization of those different forms of care has really varied. And so in some ways, to go back to your question, it's added an additional level of complexity into a traditional diagnosis journey because now there are that many more options and avenues to seek care. But then in some cases, it's actually causing patients to take perhaps a more meandering path to that ultimate prescription because they're taking so many steps to explore different options and have different conversations along the way.

Bozidar: Yeah, very clear. Thanks for that. And we talked a little bit about audiences and the level of sophistication in the content. And the next logical question I want to ask you is about channels. So I'm now thinking, okay, with all the shifts that have happened, how do I think about channels? What are the top, let's say, three channels right now that are used for HTTP, if we limit a little bit to HTTP targeting, and what works, what doesn't, what shifts have happened when it comes to channels?

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely. So for channels overall, we have seen massive shifts. The overall trend is that utilization of digital channels has increased dramatically. So that's true across the board, but especially true for physicians. Historically, when you were thinking about a pharma launch, you wanted to make sure you had a good amount of maybe traditional print, for instance, within the mix. Print is still a very useful channel. Clients still use it for lots of reasons, but more and more we're seeing physicians, particularly as they're getting younger, right? Newer physicians are coming into the mix. More and more physicians these days are digital natives themselves. So having those digital channels as the foundation for any HTTP launch strategy is increasingly important. In terms of then specific channels within the digital space, we definitely see lots of trends in adoption around different social channels. But what I would say is the interesting tension is how brave are we as Pharma marketers to explore HCP engagement outside of those endemic environments? So we have lots of data from lots of Pharma campaigns, lots of launches, right? Where the Doximities, the CERMOS, the Medscapes, these tried and true endemic environments where we know physicians are having those deep and engaged conversations, those continue to be strong performers and continue to be key pieces of any launch strategy. But maybe more new and emerging side of things, we're also seeing more and more physician engagement on platforms like TikTok, for instance. So to actually go back to your question a few minutes ago about how are we thinking about content, it's more than just content actually, but how do we actually rethink how we think about things like peer-to-peer, for instance, and HCP influencers that we'd be tapping into these new and emerging social platforms that we don't traditionally think about for HCP Pharma engagement.

Bozidar: Just to clarify the term endemic. From what I understand endemic, meaning that let's say I'm driving a launch with a media agency, so I want to put my ad or my piece of content on a website that is contextually relevant to the audience. So Doximity, it's only doctors, it's only US, and so I can target the Cardiologist in the US because that's it. But non-endemic would be if I tried to target them on TikTok, right? Because that's broad, right? Is that correct?

Kelly: Yes, yeah, it's not necessarily a matter of targeted versus broad, but more a matter of context to what you said. So an endemic environment, yes, it would be those environments that are health care specific and truly catered to the health care sphere versus non-endemic. Think of those as broader in terms of the contextual placement. So obviously TikTok talks about all sorts of things similar, but I think whether LinkedIn would be another example, for instance, of a non-endemic platform that we do see strong opportunities for HCP engagement.

Bozidar: And then are there any leading platforms or trends that are becoming more popular or that like top three today are the same as top three, three years ago?

Kelly: So we do certainly see a lot of emerging trends. What I would say is many of the most interesting emerging trends are not yet fully ad supported. So I think that's where from an emerging trend standpoint, there's really interesting and fruitful conversations to be had about how we can be brave and experimental. And that's where content and influencers and different sorts of perhaps non-traditional media sorts of approaches can become really interesting and influential. So for instance, right now we're having lots of conversations about things like gaming. How can we use gaming in new and creative ways within the healthcare space to help stakeholders, be it those patients or physicians, get to know different therapies or understand different conditions in a new and different way. Certainly AI is all the rage right now and everyone's asking themselves questions about how we can tap into those environments. So those are conversations our search teams are having at the ready. But certainly we're thinking about more broadly in terms of how we understand those changing expectations for our customers. And then I would say, even though it's maybe a little bit of yesterday's headline, all things metaverse is also top of mind for many. Right. So thinking about those new environments or new sorts of experiences that we can create that would really deepen the sorts of engagement that we can have with different health care audiences.

Bozidar: And then one thing that particularly we're looking into is a channel is also medical societies that would soon be an endemic channel. And so when there is a launch for product societies plays a big role because their annual conferences typically when the phase three clinical trial would be communicated, like sometimes six to 12 months before it's approved. And it can affect the stocks of companies. Like we've seen that, like the impact of Asko on stocks of companies during Asko, there is data on that. It's crazy. We work more and more with medical societies. And it's interesting because they're able to engage doctors very well during three, four days of the conference. And all Pharma companies are there who have anything new or old in those specialty areas. So they pay for boots, they pay for print, they pay for sponsored lectures. Why am I mentioning also? Because trust is key. And we found that year after year, doctors trust most societies and their peers and then journals. And societies and journals kind of same thing because they usually publish the journals. So it's really interesting when you see that. That's always at the top of the most trusted. And one of the things we're exploring is how can we help societies engage doctors in between conferences and have them take a role of a mindset shift towards being a video publisher. Because as they become video publisher, given the incredible level of trust that they have with better engagement, with better content, with thought through engagement strategy, they can create like massive endemic environments. So that's more of a comment. But is there anything related to the societies and how to think about in the context of media partnerships or societies or buying ads on societies existing website that you see as change or it's mostly how it used to be?

Kelly: I think it's a great thought and completely agreed with that kind of two thoughts relatedly. We definitely always see outsized value in terms of leveraging what we would say is an earned sort of channel or a shared sort of channel. Right. So typically when we think about media, we think about paid opportunities and those would be your kind of more standard traditional media placements. But we can also think about media strategies that tap into exactly that point. Where are those opportunities to share or earn equity and trust based on the partners that we're using? And that's absolutely a huge opportunity to tap into societies and medical societies, conferences, events. Right. All of that carries with it, that trust that you just mentioned. And so that's an excellent way for us to really leverage that emotional equity of those societies and events to infuse a bigger brand experience with. So it's definitely a strong opportunity and one that we look to tap. I think you made another interesting point, though, and it again goes back to that theme of content. And, you know, it is really hard, I think, as a modern marketer, regardless of category, to look at the amount of content that it takes to create that deep and meaningful relationship with the customer, to create that engagement and conversion. And it can seem insurmountable at times. But I think that's another really strong opportunity to lean on trusted partners like societies, like events, because if we can start to shift the mindset of Pharma brands from like a campaign based approach to more of a publisher based approach, we can utilize these sorts of partnerships and partners to do that. And it really has the opportunity to move the needle in a significant way for how brands show up, how we build those deeper relationships and ultimately drive those important behavior changes among our customers.

Bozidar: Yeah, that shift that you mentioned also in preparation for our call, the publisher versus advertiser shift, because in advertising you want to click or you want awareness, depending whether it's more direct response marketing or brand awareness building. But here it's kind of trying to do both because you're doing awareness and education and trust and engagement while you also want the conversion. So I think that makes it a little bit more challenging and at the same time, of course, it creates new opportunities. I wanted to ask you, was there all data and new technologies in doing this better, faster, cheaper? Programmatic is a term that has been around for a long time. And programmatic, too, again, my limited understanding, basically enables you to buy a lot of placements, a lot of inventory of physicians' attention across different places and then use an algorithm to optimize because it's not possible to do it like human beings, but use algorithm to optimize how much you spend, where you are. And that technology has been around, there's massive industries around that. Now there is also ChatGPT that can predict what I want to say next in the podcast episode. And so how is advertising industry and media industry right now thinking of technologies happening right now? Is there fear? Is there an opportunity to do even better programmatic with even better predictive algorithms? How should someone think of it in 2023?

Kelly: Yeah, it's a huge opportunity. And I think being on the media side of things, I know for me personally has been a real thrill. As someone who's come up through market research and consumer insights, getting to be part of this rapid adoption and evolution of new types of data, new technologies to engage has been like a Pandora's box. So it's definitely an exciting time. I do think media agencies have a really unique role to play because we do sit as such connectors across the communication and marketing ecosystem. So we want to be engaging really frequently with whatever the first party data is that a client has. We also want to be tapping into all of that third party data. If a client has a CDP or other MarTech solutions, that becomes a really important technology connector across that ecosystem. Certainly, as you mentioned, Programmatic plays a piece into that. And so how are we connecting all these engines and pipes so that holistically, a media strategy, we're not just optimizing the Programmatic piece or we're not just optimizing maybe a CTV component or we're not just optimizing a rep-triggered email, for instance, but that all of these experiences are actually coming together and creating that omni-channel experience. It's really the holy grail of, I think, what we're all here to do. And certainly being an early adopter and avid tester of these new technologies is going to be absolutely key to those future successes that we're striving for as an industry.

Bozidar: All right. I'm also staying optimistic because of course, everyone is a little bit scared, a little bit optimistic. There's a mix of how people react. I heard someone say at an event I attended last week is that we are parenting, in the parenting stage of AI. So we are parenting now AI, deciding what are the rules of engagement, what are the regulations, how do you behave well, not behave. So I thought that was a great way to put it, but I'm optimistic as well. But yes, the person is, by the way, PhD clinical psychologist in psychology area. So I was like, parenting. And also with what you just said, I want to ask you about third party versus first party data, because we've been hearing for the last three years that in a cookie-less future and less access to third party data, a lot of this already happened, Apple changes, things like that. So to me, the way I'm thinking about it is, okay, first party importance will definitely grow because you want your unique data sets, proprietary data. And especially if you have a great way to engage doctors through content, then every second of spent with content is bringing that data in the first party. So is real first party growing and important still? And also how critical it is for powering every on the channel, especially since CDP companies are talking a lot

Kelly: about this as well. Yeah, absolutely. First party continues to be a very important piece of the ecosystem and brands that have first party data do have an advantage in terms of creating that engagement experience, truly driving that end to end brand funnel and brand experience that they're looking for. I think there's kind of two aspects to it, in terms of how to even generate the first party data in the first place. It actually goes back to our conversation a few minutes ago about driving those behavior change experiences. And so from a media perspective, we can start to shift our focus from thinking about one media engagement as one impression, for instance, to something more like one media engagement as a true engagement and asking ourselves, well, what is the value exchange that we're going to give someone for engaging with this? Therefore, then what is the content that we need to deliver to actually garner that engagement in the first place that goal to build first party data actually becomes a great driver to create better value exchange experiences that ultimately drives behavior change goals. So the whole thing is all connected. But I think oftentimes marketers think of all the reasons it's hard to collect first party data. And it is because you're asking people to give their information. But actually, if we flip it and think of the opportunity for value exchange, we could get to so many richer brand experiences because of it. So I just think there's a great opportunity there.

Bozidar: Yeah. And some fundamentals, education-based marketing is a term I think invented in 60s or 70s. And I think it's really at the core of how people want to engage nowadays, because they want to be educated so they can build trust through that and ask better questions. And they want that to be done through channels where they are, where I am, anytime, anywhere fits into my life, whether instead of me fitting into how someone wants me to be forced to click on something.

Kelly: Yeah, absolutely.

Bozidar: Yeah, definitely to have a lot of questions and maybe for another episode. And I know we're running a little bit out of time. So for the very end, I'd like to ask you a few rapid fire questions, answers about you. So the audience gets to know Kelly and the first one is what do you think is the industry buzzword of 2023?

Kelly: I would say definitely Omnichannel. We are hearing Omnichannel left and right, but actually to what you just said, I think it is interesting because in a lot of ways it's a new expression of the same goals and the same North Star that we've all been seeking as marketers, right? It's right message, right moment, right place. So how we do that then has gotten more complicated and exactly to our conversation, right? There's all sorts of new and emerging channels. There's all sorts of data opportunities, all sorts of technology that can connect or disconnect these different journeys and create more fragmentation. So how we actually get to Omnichannel has more upside than ever, but also more challenge. But I would say cracking true Omnichannel is definitely the buzzword that everyone is hot on the case for this year.

Bozidar: I love it, cracking true Omnichannel. And what's your go-to type of music when you need some inspiration?

Kelly: When I really need to crank on something, I am a big fan of some like indie girl pop. So Seagrid, add a little folk in there and maybe listen to some Maggie Rogers. Anna of the North is another great one, but those I would say are definitely my go-tos.

Bozidar: All right, good ones. And what's the one sentence advice you would give someone just starting out in the world of Pharma commercialization or HSAs?

Kelly: I would say don't be intimidated by the science, be inspired by the science, and really use that as the hook to go deep on who your customer is and what they need.

Bozidar: I love that. Don't be afraid to be inspired by science. And where can people find you online?

Kelly: Online, I am on LinkedIn and Instagram.

Bozidar: All right. Well, thank you, Kelly. It's been an absolute pleasure to talk to you today and really dive deeper in the state of media and launches in the US today. Sure, I have another episode just on the patient side. I'll go a little bit deeper. This is really great.

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